Arthur Willemsen
Business Manager at the Department of Medical BioSciences and the Department of Medical Neuroscience, Radboudumc
Who is Arthur?
What is your career path?
Arthur: I'm trained as a Business Manager, so I have a master in business science. I started in a commercial company and then I transferred to the Radboud University. And after two years, I was asked to join setting up the Donders Center, a new neuroscience institute. We were just with four people back in 2001, starting the Donders. In 2015, I moved to the Radboudumc.
A business manager is responsible for all the business things, the financial issues, the HR issues…So overseeing everything beyond the science and the education.
How do you get to know about postdocs?
Arthur: When we started the Donders, that was also the first time I learned about PhD students, postdocs, professors, assistant professors. We started with the PI (Principal Investigator) system. At that time, most PIs are quite young, and they had to acquire funding for PhD students, for postdocs, for research assistants…
We were one of the first to adopt the PI system, which came basically from the UK and from the US. The PI system is really focused on the quality: you need to have top publications, top grants, and your PhD students should be excellent…The Donders was set up from the beginning to become a high quality research center, and that's what we thought was needed.
What are your experiences with postdocs?
Arthur: There was, at the time, already a postdoc network established at the university level, around 2004 or so. I remember going there with one of the postdocs to see what was happening there.
The postdocs we had at the Donders, at that time, were young and they just had a PhD. Our postdocs were thinking, “OK, I have to get a grant. Where can I get it? Please help me.” “I'm still young. Help me in my career to become a professor.”
And the postdocs at the university, some of them were really struggling. The problems they had were completely different from the postdocs we had. They had already children and a house and couldn't afford a mortgage or couldn't get the right mortgage because they have short contracts
And the other experience I have is, if you look at the numbers, then from every 100 PhD students...I think to the postdoc level, it's still one third to 40 percent. And then to the next level, it's only seven of the hundreds. And then in the end, the professorship is only for one or two of the hundreds. Also my son started two years ago with a PhD, and I really liked it. I never promoted it to him. But when he came, “hey, I got an offer for a PhD. What should I do?” I told him, “oh, wow, a PhD position, that's really fine. But be aware that thereafter it will be really hard to stay in science.” I really recommended him to look from Day 1 also to the other options.
Arthur’s Portrait of Postdocs
What does postdoc mean to you?
Arthur: It's doing research on a higher level and being the glue within the group, because mostly the PI or the group leader doesn't have much time to supervise the PhD students, in most groups.
A postdoc is also looking for one’s own career. This is the phase where you have to get your own grants, for example, the Veni grant or something comparable. And also knowing that, 15% or so, there's only one of every seven applicants making it to the Veni, and the Veni doesn't give a guarantee to the next level. It used to be, if somebody got a Veni, the permanent position was almost guaranteed. There is basically, on the higher levels to the associate and full professors, a fixed number of positions available. But the group below including the upcoming postdocs with a Veni, Marie Curie, as such, is much larger.
If you look at other careers, for example, becoming a judge, becoming a lawyer, becoming an accountant, they also start with a comparable educational trajectory to a PhD. But thereafter, that number is really aligned with the number of judges, lawyers and accountants needed. And here we're creating a huge number of PhD students with only a small amount of functions thereafter.
I'm always amazed how many people stick to the science. And I think it's really good because it shows the motivation of the scientists. But it's not the best for yourself as a person.
What would (not) fall under postdocs’ responsibility?
Arthur: I think it would be wrong if a postdoc is just doing a PhD job, so only doing the experiments and carrying out their research. If a postdoc wants to stay in a scientific career path, then a postdoc should do more. A postdoc should have the time to apply for own grants and to start thinking about own research line and looking for their own niche within the scientific world he or she is living in. There should be time to do this.
Support in career development
Do you feel that postdocs are well supported in their career development?
Arthur: Are you familiar with the scientific career path of the Radboud UMC? It's really based on what we're seeing in the numbers from the 100 to the 1 or 2. We saw postdocs struggling. Lots of postdocs had to stop their scientific careers and were really disappointed in science. So, the UMC developed a talent track where you can grow from postdoc to associate professor. And for the postdocs we are offering help, we are giving much more. We're giving them leadership courses and basically preparing them for all. It's a two-stage track, first from postdoc to assistant professor, and then from assistant to associate professor.
Probably as a university, there are still assistant professorships in a permanent position. We don't want that. There are still a couple from the old system. But in the new system, if you are in science, you have to grow at least till associate professor.
So, don't push all those PhDs, postdocs to try to get into those few positions, but better give them a decision upfront. The postdocs that are interested in other careers, let them start early. If you look at the data, the longer you stay as a postdoc, the harder it gets to get out of academia.
How does the talent track look like?
Arthur: We developed after every stage a list of criteria, and looked at ‘Recognition and Reward’ and the DORA-initiative. This is different from the criteria in the PI system. In the PI system, there were hard criteria: you had to have top papers , you had to have enough grant money...For postdocs, it's more a list of things. You should attract funding, but there are also criteria on leadership skills. It's more that we're not looking at if there's a check on every aspect, but more on the total package. So, if you don't have those stellar papers, but you are a real good leader, then you can compensate for it. I always like that people have a real open mind to hear the opinions of others, which is one thing that's often not valued but actually very important.
What support do non-talent-track postdocs receive?
Arthur: Hardly, no, that's a trade-off. We invest in a small group a lot. And the others, they get some support, from our grant support office for applying for a Veni and the courses related to grants opportunities, but not the same as the ones in the talent track.
What support do postdocs receive for non-academic careers?
Arthur: At our human resource department, there are advisors on career development. But human resources at the medical center is focused on care, so they are not always the best support focus on science. But in general, postdocs can get counseling on their careers.